tacking angles

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jerryo
Ireland
70 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2008 : 09:52:38
Having recently purchased Parvus Quinque (fin keel) and sailed her to Dublin it became apparent that her tacking angle was terrible- 130 degrees. There are various improvements I can make but I wonder if anyone would care to comment on either their own sabre's tacking angle or what might be expected of a fin keel sabre and how close winded or not they are. It would help me if I knew approx the figure I was aiming for.
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Thanks
Jerry O
Graham
United Kingdom
9 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2008 : 12:22:10
hullo Jerry

I have a bilge keel so dont think I can be of much help as yours is fin.
I look forward to seeing any response you get to your question just out of interest.
Due out on Blue Mist this weekend and will check out my angles and let you know if you like? May be an interesting thing to be aware of.
As I understand it my sabre may point better than some bilge keels as I have a small bowspit and larger jib than standard.

jerryo
Ireland
70 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 : 08:25:10
Hi Graham,
Thanks for your reply and yes if you could check it out it would be useful.
I have researched this on the internet and it transpires that Parvus Quinque's tacking angle is only 5 degrees better than a square rigged ship!!!!
I must say that shocked me to the core.
Any info on how close-winded the sabre is, fin or bilge will help to get an overall picture of the expected performance. It has surprised me that there have been 40 reads of my posted question with yours as the only reply. Does this mean that owners don't know, aren't bothered or what? It would seem to me to be important if one was caught on a lee shore with engine trouble you couldn't beat your way out of it.
Thanks for your input Graham.
Cheers
Jerry

dave
United Kingdom
67 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 : 19:26:33 Show Profile Email Poster Edit Reply Send dave an AOL message Reply with Quote View user's IP address Delete Reply
hallo jerry
as one who tries to race my bilge keel sabre i find that if i keep my rigging very tight i tend to pointfar higher than your 130 degrees kicker and outhaul are the bits i tweek most
kemp the sailmakers have a very good tuning guide on there web site thats worth alook
hope this has been useful
dave

sabre27
178 Posts

Posted - 09/10/2008 : 23:05:26
Hello Jerry, Do not despair!!!

The fin keeled Sabre may not be the closest boat in the world to windward but it is no slouch either! Your present tacking angle I can beat in my twin keeled boat by a fair margin. I will have, however, more leeway and cannot get anywhere near a well set-up fin keeler.

You must keep your forestay tight to prevent the sail sagging! Tighten the halyard to bring the draught forward. Put some ‘pre-bend’ in the mast. Contrary to common belief a well cut mainsail, with a good flat exit to the leach will make a huge difference. Put tell tails on the mainsail leach so you can prevent stalling it. Use the kicker and pull the traveller to windward to introduce twist at the top, If you have tired, stretched old sails you will struggle in most boats.

Dave is right about Kemp’s sail and rigging tuning guide, your Owners Handbook has a slightly older version.

Your Sabre has the potential to sail well into the wind, all you have to do is find out how! When you’ve cracked it you’ll fly so get stuck in and reap the rewards.

A lee shore in strong winds holds no fears for me and my Sabre.

All the best, Paul Howard, Tech Officer.

jerryo
Ireland
70 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2008 : 10:31:41
Hi Dave and Paul,

Your input is much appreciated and I am working on trying to improve the situation. The main problem at the moment is that I cannot tighten the genoa halyard as the causes the furling gear to jam and the solution will become apparent during the winter when I drop the mast.For sure PQ's sails are old, 1990 vintage so that cannot help.
I will come back early next season with an update on the results. In the meantime thanks again for your help.
Paul, I will shortly be sending my application to join the association.

Cheers Jerry

ken endean
United Kingdom
52 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2008 : 09:52:54
Jerry, the angle at which any sloop-rigged boat will point, when close hauled, is almost entirely dependent on the cut of the headsail. After all, you probably steer so that the luff of the jib is not quite lifting. If your boat cannot point close without the luff lifting, it is likely that the jib is too full. Tightening the forestay may help but I should also look at the sail's cut. The keel type may affect leeway but is irrelevant to the pointing angle. London Apprentice has twin keels but normally tacks through little more than 90 degrees on flat water, when carryinmg the full genny. Rolling the headsail means that the genoa sheet car moves forward and the sheeting angle increases, when she will not point as high.
Ken

jerryo
Ireland
70 Posts

Posted - 13/10/2008 : 14:35:37
Dear Ken,

Thanks for your reply and I take your point re cut of the genoa which is, as you suggest the nub of the problem. When sailing yesterday I was looking at the shape of it and it most certainly is very full, not surprising considering its age.
I have to thank you on another matter, namely the reason I bought a sabre. I was reading one of your articles while looking for a boat to buy and realised that you sail all over the place in a bilge keeler, so I thought the sabre must be very seaworthy. On looking into the history I reckoned that this was the boat that ticked the most boxes for me. So, thanks again Ken, I am delighted with her.

Regards
Jerry

Ian Kilpatrick
United Kingdom
7 Posts

Posted - 20/10/2008 : 14:19:41
Hi Jerrho,
As the owner of CYLESTA and having had many a tussle with PQ as our moorings were next to each other, I can say that neither of us had much difficulty in the pointing. I have a HUGE jib but it has to be in and rubbing the cross trees with the car about 9 - 12 inches from the aft end, the outhaul has to be tight, the mast has 2 to 3 inches of prebend (achieved by tightening the fore lowers bar taught as there is no adjustment in my fore stay,and the main sheet hauled up to windward. Then when sailing about 2 - 2½ foot back winding all along the length of the mast. Glad you got to Ireland OK I saw you the day after I witnessed the deed of sale.
Cheers Ian

jerryo
Ireland
70 Posts

Posted - 20/10/2008 : 16:00:31
Hi Ian,

Very nice to hear from you. I remember meeting you on that exciting day, made more glorious on being shown the masterly solution to the heads door problem.
PQ's tacking angle is really very bad but as you will see from the reply from Ken Endean ,with which I agree, it is really to do with the age and shape of the genoa, being old and baggy respectivly. I will have to bite the bullet and get a new one as the rig set up seems good.
One of those strange things happened whilst at Weir Quay. When I left the mooring I passed a Salar 40 called Spillikin moored just down river from Weir Quay. I used to sail on her in the late 1960's on the west coast of scotland and even more strange saw her whist on holiday in Paxos in the mid 90's. I took this as a good omen.
PQ is a fine boat and I am very happy with her.
Hope to meet with you again sometime.

Kind regards
Jerryo

NPMR
United Kingdom
59 Posts

Posted - 22/10/2008 : 10:45:07
Hi Jerryo

Pointing ability of our Sabre has long been as issue for me as I am always wanting maximum speed on a journey and I am disappointed to see more modern boats getting to windward of us on a beat. But not massively so, so as others have suggested, it is probably a problem with your set up.

One thing I did notice, was when we switched to roller reefing; we had our old genoa adapted to save cash and could not get the sheeting angles sorted at all. The sailmaker came on board and neither could he - so we carved a gert great lump off the luff!

This resolved the sheeting angle but my expectation was that we would suffer much reduced performance while we saved up for a new and purpose designed Genny. In fact the opposite has occured!

I would say (feel only, not empirically tested) that we point vaguely higher and have often gained speed when pointing. Downwind, we are still hopeless but reaching or pointing - better.

Don't know the science here.

Cheers

Nigel Ross
HUZZAH

joeschofield
19 Posts

Posted - 24/01/2009 : 19:13:04
I too get really poor pointing on my Sabre twin keeler. Paul and Ken make a good point about the difference between tacking angle and leeway, although one adds to the other. I took my sails in to Jeckells recently and quizzed them about poor pointing. They said my genoa is much too full. It is a roller genoa from a firm I've never heard of and came new with the boat. I suspect it was bought off the shelf, which I don't think is ever a good idea with sails.

Anyway, if I can afford it I'm going to get a new Jeckell's genoa this year and we'll see if a proper sail makes a big difference.

By the way, no matter how poor you boat points you should always be able to get off a lee shore (unless it's in a gale). It might take a while but you'll always make progress. The only time you really get nowhere is when the tide is agains you, and I can't see that happening on a lee shore.
Regards, Joe Schofield

ken endean
United Kingdom
52 Posts

Posted - 25/01/2009 : 17:11:24
Joe, before you buy a new genoa, I should like to offer an extra thought. In 2004, I purchased a new one from Crusader Sails. I did not ask for a foam strip in the luff because I had seen some that were very bulky when rolled. After we has sailed around Britain, the genny had some odd creases, so I went back to Crusader and they explained that I had used too much luff tension (and they were right; after the sail had been ironed I was more gentle and the problem has not recurred). While talking to them, I asked about foam luff strips. They commented that foam tends to crumble after a few years and I got them to fit their preferred system, which is a double tube of polythene (like a figure 8) sewn in behind the luff. Towards the head and tack, this packer is tapered by cutting away one of the tubes. It has worked very well - less bulky than foam but keeps the sail reasonably flat, with little or no belly, even in pretty strong winds. My genny was deliberately 'low tech', in tan canvas, and fairly heavy, but it still looks pretty good. Ken

joeschofield
19 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2009 : 15:04:54
Ken thanks for that info. I'm quite keen to see what a better sail will get us but if funds prohibit I will pursue that idea. And if I end up going nowhere with a new sail I'll eat my er, tiller!