Questions on Sabre 27

[Sabre27Admin]

rocklyn4
United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 21/01/2010 : 21:28:07
Hi everyone I am just waiting on a survey coming back on a Sabre 27. I took my family to look at it a few weeks ago and we have been viewing your website. We all really like the boat but today I was talking to a local broker, he told me to stay well away from them???? He told me that they are badly built boats and suffer alot from osmosis, he told me to go for Westerly, Trapper or Jaguar as they hold their price better & are better built boats. We really like this Sabre we have looked at and think he may be trying to put us off as he`s not selling it. Any advice would be gratefully appreciated. The name of the boat is Backdraft and is located in Northern Ireland if anyone knows it.
Many thanks
robbyc0
United Kingdom
25 Posts

Posted - 22/01/2010 : 07:09:23
Aargh what absolute rubbish!

1. Osmosis isn't actually a big problem - has never sunk a boat and as long as it is dealt with locally when found (not be re-eopxyuing the whole hull) easy to fix.

2. Sabres were heavily built by Marcon who built Rival hulls and were well respected. They are no more prone to osmosis than any other boat of the era, maybe less even.

3. Westerlys are fine boats but the bolt on keels can weaken and fall off in a bilge keeled Centaur - won't happen to the encapsulated keels of a Sabre.

Find another broker - this one knows nothing.

nickbd
United Kingdom
205 Posts

Posted - 22/01/2010 : 08:30:40 nickbd's nickbd's
We looked at the Westerly Centaur and Jaguar before buying as well. The Centaur was a good boat but I felt as if I was in a caravan rather than a yacht. I couldn't even turn around inside the Jaguar - the Sabre was head and shoulders above them in this respect. As for seaworthiness, I've never been concerned in the least in heavy weather - the Sabre always looks after us and is very seaworthy and tough. And I'd be hard pressed to find a boat of this age that doesn't have a little osmosis!

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Nick B-D

1974 Fin Keel
Yanmar YSE 12

sabre27
178 Posts

Posted - 22/01/2010 : 12:05:20
When I saw this posting, I thought it better to hold my fire until I cooled down a little, and to wait to see what other owners had to say. But I realise that ‘cooling off’ is not going to happen for quite some while, so…..

The shear arrogant ignorance of this self serving broker astounds me, even after all these years.

For the benefit of you, the readers of this thread, I have previously corresponded with rocklyn4 and understand why they should be concerned about the damming observations of this broker, as they run contrary to the information I gave to them. This was cold, factual and based on thirty years of ‘hands on’, practical, ownership of a Sabre 27 and sixteen years of personally examining and working on more Sabres than I can possibly remember. Add to this all the information that comes to me, from Sabre owners, as Technical Officer of this owners association! I have no axe to grind, no sales to make.

Do we buy our boats as an investment, is that how we see them? Certainly for us, we bought Corsair for the family's pleasure and to enrich our life experience, that was what we invested in. Didn't we do well!

Buyers must always remember that the broker’s opinion is always coloured by the vested interest in making a sale, It’s what they do for a living!

Please add your contribution, tell it as you find it, we have nothing to hide.


Paul Howard. S27OA Technical Officer.

Lottie
United Kingdom
12 Posts

Posted - 22/01/2010 : 12:52:43
Hi

I don't own a Sabre - I'm a Trident owner who just lurks on this interesting forum - and have owned several Westerlys. I quite understand the outrage this broker's comment gives rise to. And I share it to some extent. But from a more dispassionate point of view I would say "It depends what you mean by better built..."

Marcon were pioneers of the kit-built boat (two out of three Tridents were home-completed though I daresay the proportion of owner-completed Sabres is lower). So if by "better-built" you mean "better-finished" then the fact is that there is a great variability between the quality and even the layout of Tridents - with a few being better finished than the Marcon edition - and quite a few being worse...or different. Eric White (builder of both Trident and Sabre) told me he launched a home-built boat once which had been completed from Marcon mouldings by two lovely girls. The interior had been wallpapered.

Almost all Westerlys on the other hand were factory jobs and don't have so many charming differences. I daresay standard factory-built boats are rather easier to sell. And they maintain their price as a result.

But the OP is a purchaser not a seller. So if he can buy a boat just as good (or better ) for less, rocklyn 4 might regard this as a good thing. With one proviso: if he thinks he might want to get his money back quickly then resaleability is a factor to consider.

Any would-be owner can judge for themselves whether the standard of fit-out is acceptable to him or her - or to whoever they might want to sell it to subsequently. But beneath the skin, the design, strength and integrity of the hull and equipment of Marcon's products were second to none and superior to many.

rocklyn4
United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 22/01/2010 : 13:49:04
Hi everyone,

I hope I haven`t annoyed any off you, I was only putting on the forum what I was told & thought that the owners here would restore my confidence in my possible purchase. Fingers crossed the survey comes back to me and all is well because having seen the pictures and read the stories from your get togethers I see you all have some real fun. I have only sailed Lightnings which are a 19`6 dinghy & my wife and son have never sailed before so I thought this was a perfect boat for us. I do hope to have this boat bought by the end of next week and if you will have us as members of your forum and association because I am sure I will have plenty off questions and queries for you all.
As I said at the start I was only looking for someone to restore my confidence in my pending purchase.
Thank you all for your responses and fingers crossed you will have many more answers for me when I need guidance for the season ahead!!!!
Regards
Kyle

nickbd
United Kingdom
205 Posts

Posted - 22/01/2010 : 20:17:31 nickbd's nickbd's
Good luck with the survey Kyle - I look forward to hearing about your progress!

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Nick B-D

1974 Fin Keel
Yanmar YSE 12

ken endean
United Kingdom
52 Posts

Posted - 23/01/2010 : 17:28:12
Hello Kyle,
I'm coming to this discussion a little late but one of our members asked me to contibute some unemotional comments (!). Before doing so, I shall indulge in just a little mild sailing-related emotion by saying that my own Sabre, which I have owned for 23 years, has always impressed me by being docile and predictable. It is not a racing machine but handles well in rough water (notably better than one 27ft cruiser that is often promoted as a 'blue-water classic', but often needs its jib backed to make it tack).

Any boat that is 30-40 years old will have lots of gear and fittings that are EITHER worne out OR have been replaced, and it is your surveyor's job to check on that. After a few decades, sound GRP boats do not seem to get any older but they do get tired and lose value if they are neglected. That neglect can then be reversed by care, attention and some cash. Some designs have fundamentally unsound or risky features, such as dodgy keels or balsa sandwich construction, which are very difficult to do anything about. Sabres are generally easy to fix or to alter because the mouldings were unsophisticated. There are a couple of known faults that have affected several boats but they are both fairly simple to rectify and are described in the Owners Association Handbook.

In practice, If you or your inexperienced family encounter any problem or cause for worry, it will probably centre on the engine, and this is a problem that affects all boats equally. Old yacht engines and their ancillaries such as cooling and electrical systems are potentially unreliable unless they have been serviced meticulously and all worn parts replaced regularly. If the engine and its systems are fairly new, that is good. if you are an expert mechanic, that is even better. If neither is true, then start feeding money into a piggy bank against the day when you decide to buy new machinery. If the Sabre is compared with other designs, in terms of engine installations, its plus points are reasonably good engine access and a moulded shaft log - better than a P-bracket, which would be more vulnerable to damage.

If your survey does reveal osmosis, check whether your surveyor has established the extent and depth. You might be interested to know that our own boat had osmosis between double gel coats. I gouged out, filled and coated the blistered areas for £75, mainly in 1987, and they have not given any more trouble.

Good sailing.

Ken Endean

rocklyn4
United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 23/01/2010 : 22:07:05
Hi Ken & Nick,
Thank you for your replys my confidence is definitely 100% back again.
We took a drive out to the yard today and the survey has been done so should have it monday or tuesday and fingers crossed be able to start work on the boat next saturday as my son cannot wait. Ken the engine & gearbox (Beta 20hp BD722) were installed in 2001 but has only 150 hours on the clock so barely even run in. Again many thanks to all the members who have answered my query & put me back on an even keel!!!!

Regards
Kyle

Iain C
United Kingdom
181 Posts

Posted - 23/01/2010 : 22:12:55
I would ask the broker why the association insurer is able to offer a "self certifed" insurance policy with no survey required if Sabres were so badly built! If they are that bad then surely no insurer would touch one?

I'm new to the Sabre fold but did have a look over a Jaguar a few years back and to my eye the Sabre seems a lot more solid!

rocklyn4
United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 23/01/2010 : 22:23:26
Hi Iain,
While I was out at the boat today I got talking to a man who has known the sabre for 5 years now and says he has seen the owner out sailing and it is a cracking boat. This guy had a Jaguar 25 & he told me that the Sabre is a far better boat so thanks for your input we just can`t wait for the survey now.
As for the broker I won`t be near him again!!!!!

Kyle

keith
United Kingdom
118 Posts

Posted - 25/01/2010 : 16:16:36
As someone who is a boatbuilder who has worked on many classes & currently rebuilding a Sabre for myself i feel i can comment!
The Sabre is no worse than other boats of its age, its mouldings are generally excellent & they have stood the test of time. Marcon did cut corners here & there such as lack of pads under deck fittings but their keels dont fall of & need resealing on a regular basis like westerlys!
As for Jaguars, i worked there & they were at the bottom of the market, they sold loads & filled the niche of starter boats but hold price better than a Sabre? in his dreams!
Whatever boat or class you go for its all down to condition, there are a lot of elderly boats out there that are either completely uneconomic to rebuild or borderline so, the Sabre is one of the few that can be brought back & cover your costs if you do the work yourself.

rocklyn4
United Kingdom
24 Posts

Posted - 27/01/2010 : 14:09:24
Hi all
I have received the survey back and all is fine a few minor details that are easily sorted!!!
So from Saturday we should be the new owners off Backdraft.
The boat at the minute is sitting in a cradle and I was wondering if anyone on the forum had ever got a trailer built or if their Sabre is sitting on one. If anyone has plans for a trailer or could photograph theirs with a few dimensions they could email me it would be gratefully appreciated.
Off now to get my application form and cheque written for the association.

Kyle

nickbd
United Kingdom
205 Posts

Posted - 27/01/2010 : 19:49:52 nickbd's nickbd's
Great news!

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Nick B-D

1974 Fin Keel
Yanmar YSE 12